Virisila (V) - So, yes, I think that's one of the things we have in common. We are registered in Australia and Philippines and we are a feminist fund that supports rapid response grant making. And I think last year is when we were working quite closely together Zharin (Z) - That's right. V - supporting our partners in Afghanistan. Z - Afghanistan. That's right. But tell us, share a bit more about yourself, Viri. Your personal story. V - Yeah, I guess that in terms of co-leadership, I'm a little bit more matured now. I'm now into my second co-partnership. I delved into co-leadership in 2017 with Mary Jane Rial who was my colleague at Urgent Action Fund. She left us at about, in 2020, and last year I was involved in the process of recruiting our new co lead and her name is Vinita and she's based in India. And yeah, so I think that I've been in co-leadership for a while now and I feel like I'm now getting used to it. What about you? Z - My journey to become a co-leader, I started when I was young, Viri. I think as a little girl, I always saw how my parents related to each other. So I could see my mom was the planner, my dad was the strategist. My mom was the planner and the strategist, my dad was the executor. My mom couldn't implement nothing, but my dad was the implementer. And then that kind of shifted when I was in school and the values and lessons of caring for people, putting myself in other people's shoes, understanding perspectives, et cetera. So, and then I went to school and assumed a few leadership positions. Girl Scouts, Rangers Society. And then moving on to, I was then in a corporate environment for about 20 years and assumed, in a very male dominant sector in the organisation. And then, I think God answered my call and introduced me to Musawah. I joined Musawah in October, 2020. So still fairly new to the feminist movement, but I think I've been feminist at heart since young. I went to an all girls school for 11 years as well. But when I joined Musawah, I joined as the chief operating officer under the great Zainah Anwar, the audacious Sisters in Islam and Musawah former ED. I've been quietly admiring since my early twenties. And I think from there, the board then decided, no, I think there was recognition that it was perhaps too much for one person to assume both the activism, as well as the operational organisational management in itself. And then the co-leadership model came in. And I will share with you my journey compared to yours, Viri, still very young, still very at its infancy, but there's been quite a few lessons, good lessons learned I hope to share with everyone today. And so Viri, say a bit more perhaps, about your journey. Your journey to co-leadership. V - Yeah. I used to be for many years, the executive director of the Fiji Women's Rights Movement. I was at the head of a cutting edge feminist organisation in Fiji for 14 years. And I found it while it, had a lot of, there was a lot of things that in that role, and I really enjoyed it, I also found it to be very, very lonely. I found it really lonely. I found it lonely because I felt that, no, like you rightly pointed out it, you end up carrying all the responsibilities of the organisation on your shoulders. And in some ways I think as a feminist, in reflection, when I left and I was doing some consultancy work and I was thinking about my time at the Fiji Women's Rights Movement. And one of the things I thought to myself is that, sometimes, and I'm just speaking from my own experience, we try to be everything to everybody, right? And I felt in reflection that, sometimes we are actually setting ourselves up for failure because nobody can be everything to everybody. I think that that's just an impossible task. So when the opportunity came to be part of another organisation and I was approached, the only way that I would consider it, if I was going to do it with somebody else. And the person was Mary Jane Rial. And I think we were both very willing to go into this partnership together because we already had a previous relationship and we were friends and we'd been friends and collaborators and conspirators for many years before we even became co-leads. So I think that, and it's a concept that the former co-executive directors of Frida came up with, which I absolutely love. Ruby and Debbie came up with this concept called friendship as a feminist. I think that's actually the foundation of our co-leadership journey was that it was built on the strategy of feminist, on feminist friendship. So for me, what made it feminist was the fact that it is about co-sharing, power sharing, it's about wellbeing and it's also about the opportunity to collaborate, conspire and co-dream together with a friend towards a common feminist vision. What about you? How do you see it? Z - So when I joined Musawah, I joined as the COO, right, reporting to the former ED, the founding ED at the time. And I think the realisation came about that actually, number one, it creates unnecessary additional hierarchy in the organisation. Number two, at the end of the day, we have to strengthen activism, the act of going out and fighting for space, rights, and voice out there with the strengthening of the secretariat or the core, or the operations or the running of it. And because we're fighting patriarchal forces, that we lose sight over meticulous details and planning and management and ensuring the best running of our organisations, right? Contrast that with corporate sectors who invest so much in processes, structures and procedures, because they don't really have to justify themselves across the aisle or to everyone else. So they're very focused in terms of delivering target. So I think that understanding for an organisation such as civil societies, for example, when the cause is so big and the arguments against so loud, that strengthening of the core within makes perfect sense to me. And that realisation, again, by the board, and I have to credit the Musawah board because it really came down very strongly from the top because co-leadership, as a model wasn't really popular. There were concerns about it. Can women, the stereotype of, can two women really come together and work alongside each other? But I think that realisation that, like you said, not one person can possibly embody that strength and power of both facets too, has led to the co-creation of the model. And the strategy of wielding capitalism weapons, such as processes, structures to power and strengthen Musawah in order to counter the system, self injustice and inequality, I think that was great vision. Huda Jawad is my other, my sister. So the other co-director of Musawah and we've been in this journey since August. So it's less than a year still, and we're still finding ground. And I think that makes co-leadership particularly transformational. V - I mean, the other interesting thing that you just said there and I'm keen to hear a little bit more about, because we do it, the way, I mean, Vinita and I's journey is a little bit different, is that, and this is also something that I learned from my first journey with co-leadership. When Jane and I first entered into co-leadership, we were very clear about our roles. I wanted to do resource mobilisation and strategic partnerships. I wasn't really keen on doing programming. She was excited, like that got her rocks off, was around grant making and programming. And so for the two of us, it was like the two worlds were apart. And it was like, we were both getting to have our own candy stores, but at the same time, there was like a corridor in between, which is basically governance. There were some things that were core. Human resources, that we shared as co-leads. And when you are building an organisation, that strategy works really well, but once you start to, kind of consolidate your work and you're trying to move from building into consolidation, that siloed strategy no longer can be effective because actually you can end up creating two separate organisations, which I have to admit, that did happen to us for a while, two separate organisations that are doing two different things, and it can create a lot of tension. And that was one of the things that I learned and the organisation learned as part of our learning. And so in terms of moving into the new strategic plan and with a new co-lead, we were very clear that the siloed ways of working wasn't feasible for the journey that, the next phase of UAF. So while our roles say that I'm strategic partnerships and I'm resource mobilisation and Vinita is programming and innovation, we actually work in a lot more consolidated and collaborative way now that encourages collaboration. So is that how it's happening there in Musawah right now or? Yeah, I'm keen to hear that because I heard it differently. Z - So, our skill sets are different and I do wanna get, that's a good segue into what makes co-leadership particularly feminist and transformational, Viri. And I will come back to that again, because an organisation is successful as a collective, right, as a team. So a team that is clearly empowered, engaged, enabled with the right tools, practices, that is technically a recipe for success and a co-leadership model strengthens that. So with Huda and myself, coming into the role, yes, we had, the delineation of roles. Okay, this one you do, this one, I do. My strength is here. Your strength is there. You take this, you take that. And then this is where our shared roles are and you know what, we're still developing it. And I think because the co-leadership model isn't a clear cut single point accountable, I'm gonna use an eighties reference, I'm She-Ra, princess of the universe. I know I have all the answers. But because we don't, because it's dynamic, because it's a very fluid state, the co-leadership model automatically breaks the fallacy that one person has the answers from the onset. It also means sharing vulnerabilities. It also means us saying, "This is what I like." Like you said, like in your experience. These are my strengths. I'm weak in this. I need to learn that. It creates a very different context in terms of power sharing, leadership, vulnerability, also, managing, or rather almost diluting the power distance with the rest of the organisation because the rest of the organisation sees, "Oh, they're also trying to see what they can do better "just like the rest of us." So, quoting Brené Brown, from vulnerability comes humility and then from there, it births creativity and authenticity. Which is, I think, great still for the organisation, but it also becomes a role model of collaboration with the rest of the team. I'm curious though, Viri, how does the rest of the organisation view your co-leadership? The co-leadership model for UAF? V - I think one way to describe it in the beginning is that, a bit schizophrenic. Z - Yeah. V - It's like, I remember one feedback from the team member was, "You tell me to do something and then when I talk to Jane, "she says to do something else. "What am I supposed to do?" And that was a real wake up call. So one of the things that we had to be clear about is, okay, while we are co-leaders, there are certain things that you are accountable to Viri and there's certain things you're accountable to Vini or yes, Viri should be informed on, but the accountability sits with Vinita for example. So we had to be very clear about those lines of communication and lines of like, who's supervising you, who are you accountable to? We had to be very clear about that. And to be honest, I mean, we're an organisation that's been around now for four years. We only started to get to that point this year, like it was only this year that we started to get that point. And I think a lot of it, in fact Vinita as a new co-lead, saw some of the gaps, started to identify in place, some of these processes or she identified the processes and we rolled with it. And I think that, for me, that I found that really, really useful and recognising that this model, I hated, I don't even wanna call it model, it's an approach really. It's approach. Right? Because model makes it sound like it's static. It doesn't change. Z - Yeah. V - And that's the thing. Yeah. The thing about co-leadership is that it's dynamic, it's contextual, it's dependent on the people that are involved in that relationship. And yeah, maybe you can actually, maybe you can talk to us a little bit about your coach, because I think that's the other thing too, that the two of us do, that as co-leaders we both have coaches. Z - Yeah. No, that's true. So, I still remember, and again, I go back to the board because it was our board members who actually connected us. No, no. So, and when we spoke to you, and we asked you, "What is the one thing? "Help us Viri. "We're struggling with finding, "we're trying to find our feet. "What is the one thing we need to do?" And you told us to get a coach early on. So, we engaged an organisational development consultant based in Malaysia, Susanna George. And I have to say that the sessions allowed us to kind of peel the onion a little bit. So Huda and I are very different in terms of personalities and character. Huda is very outgoing, very feminist, activist out there. She can manage the media. She's all about external engagements. I'm very much spreadsheets. And my staff will laugh at that. They will know this. Processes, structure, things need to be in place. Where are we going? Are we meeting our targets, our impact, et cetera, et cetera. And of course it came to a clash, of course it came to a clash. And we were like, and Huda is terrified of spreadsheets and like shared drive and folders and that sort of thing. But I could never write a solidarity statement as powerful, and as impactful as her. So while, so the clash happened and the coach allowed us to peel the onion to understand where we were coming from. So what we found was while we were, we appeared to be vastly different, we were actually one and the same. Bron (B) - Sorry, Zharin. Sorry. You've just been muted by a mistake. V - Unmute. Z - Ah, sorry. Where did you lose me? Or where did I- V - Coach, vastly different. You said the coach, we found out we were vastly different. Z - Oh, vastly different. Right. Sorry. V - But the same. Z - Right. So vastly different, but actually the same. And that sameness was really the Musawah value. So we wanted to fight and strive for the same thing. And to be honest, being two young, female Muslim feminists stepping in into the large shoes of our founding ED, we basically didn't wanna F it up. We didn't, and that was like, "Oh my gosh, I feel the same too." Okay. Let's work together. So that galvanised the intent, our intent. V - Yeah. I mean, yeah. I totally agree you. I mean, we only started doing coaching Jane's last six months and I was kicking myself. I was like, and actually Debbie, who used to be the co-executive director of Frida, she sits on my board and one of the first things she recommended was "get yourself a coach". And we were like, because, okay, I have to be honest. We're like, "Hello, we have been leaders before. "I can do this on my own. I don't need someone to coach me." And now I want to kick myself. I just really wanna kick myself because if I'd done the coaching earlier, a lot of the things that I knew in the last six months of Jane and I's co-leadership would have made a lot, I don't say easier, it would've been a lot more different. And one of the things I recognised is that, the traits and characteristics that makes you exceptional on your own, aren't necessarily the same kind of skills that you need as a co-leader, right. But for me, I found that when I used to be on my own, I'd have these big ideas and really, I wasn't actually accountable to anybody except my board, right? Whereas in co-leadership, you have these, and I shared with Jane and Jane would be like, "Okay, how is that gonna go?" Because she's a lot more pragmatic than me. And the analogy I used to like to use is that I'm like the kite that flies up in the air. And she's like the person holding the kite and kind of grounding it, right? And one of the things- Z - That's familiar. V - I realised, yeah, is I realised was that we have very different ways of approaching leadership individually. And as a co-leadership, that's almost like a third personality. So like the strengths of the one co-leader, the strengths of you is another thing, and then the strength of your co-leadership is something, is also a different thing. And the threes, in a way, the way our coach described it is you've gotta see co-leadership as three people in a relationship. You, your co-lead and the co-leadership that you two are trying to build, sustain. And, yeah, so I found that to be like light bulb movement for me. I was like, "Oh my God, that is so true." It changed my whole perspective. Yeah. Z - You know what resonated with me when you said that, Viri, is I guess conventional leadership, when it's just one person, that leadership is a model. It's fixed, it's rigid. It's set in stone. The co-leadership approach is dynamic, and it's constantly dynamic because you have two people who are each other's mirrors, are each other's check and balance. And as a result, the need to discuss, to converse, to align, to realign puts the leadership or the thought leadership at the prefrontal cortex at all times. So it's not always on automatic pilot. Yeah, what I say goes, et cetera, et cetera. So you're constantly checking and ensuring that state of equilibrium within the three of you, or three of us, the individual co-leader and the shared leadership. And I think that doesn't work just for work related and the work, the activism that we do, it's also for wellness. So Huda and myself, I find quite naturally is the check-in with each other. "Hey, how are you doing?" So that wellness approach also comes in that collective care is also very, very clear. Is that the same for you? V - Yeah, it is. And I think that for me, one of the things is, and it would be, like the one thing if I would were to share with everybody is that for me, the co-leadership approach is really about practicing how you want change to happen, right? For you to be part of that relationship or that approach, you're constantly having to negotiate some fixed ideas. You have to negotiate your, like your co-leadership and you're constantly having to, look and see change about yourself if it's not good to try and improve that partnership towards moving closer towards that feminist vision that you have. So for me, what I like about that is that it's like, it's what we've been saying, right? It's about modeling the change that we want to see in the world, right? And that co-leadership model is to me, is like that action that is happening. The questioning, the mirroring, the collaboration. Z - Yeah. V - So that process also changes you. It also changes you. And it made me realise, to me, one of the things that I realised is that what I've learned in my four years of co-leadership, I have learned more about myself than I have in my whole 14 years when I was heading an organisation on my own. Z - Right. V - I know more about myself. I understand myself better because I am in co-leadership with somebody. So the personal growth is exponential. For me, it's like one of the things that I would always promote about co-leadership. What about you? What would be your one takeaway? Z - Yeah, so I guess, my one takeaway, so far we've been talking real positive stuff, and I'm sure the audience are thinking, "Hmm, where is the other side of the coin, right?" I think my biggest takeaway on this co-leadership model is that you need, and this is, I am quoting again from my coach, our coach, right? Susanna George. You need to have, and I'm probably quoting it wrong, but you need to have the intention from the start and the attention to make it work, basically, so the details of making it work. And you can't, so if anybody says, "Oh, we've listened to this talk by Zharin and Viri, "in co-leadership model. "Yeah. It's gonna work." No, it's not, right? Like any approach, for example, it does, it is about making that intention, understanding clear between the two of you and also the rest of the organisation. It doesn't just take two people to make the co-leadership. Well, it takes the entire organisation, including the board to make co-leadership work. So, yes. So intention and attention. Right. V - Feminist. Z - Sorry? V - All right. The intention, being intentional is actually very feminist, right? I always think about feminism being something that's intentional. You have to be, and pay attention, as you said. Z - Yeah. Yeah. It's true. Right. V - Shall we bring- Z - So, shall we call Bron in? V - Yeah, let's do that. B - Thank you both so much. That was just so fascinating to listen to. I could listen to you talk all day long. I wanna invite the rest of the people to turn your cameras on and unmute yourself and let's give Viri and Zharin the biggest applause and woohoos that we can possibly muster because it was fascinating. Woo! I'm sure you've inspired a lot of people to take on or think.